Blogged Answers: Redux - Not Dead Yet! about marks-dev-blog-comments HOT 115 OPEN

Original author: Eric Andre @ericandre
Original date: 2018-03-29T14:12:48Z

I would like to point out that Redux can be used without React. Most of the concerns above are always tied to Redux + React. I have currently been working on a game engine that uses Redux for state management and the project does not at all use React. Guess what? It works great. Alll those specific examples of React has a new context API that could replace Redux can only even begin to be an argument if you are specifically using Redux with React.

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Original author: deadcoder0904 @deadcoder0904
Original date: 2018-03-29T16:31:21Z

As a note, New Context API does not replace Redux at all. It doesn't have Time Travel Debugging & for more info checkout https://www.reddit.com/r/re... & can result in something like https://twitter.com/coderit...

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Original author: Eli
Original date: 2018-03-29T22:03:58Z

It can, check out react-waterfall...

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Original author: BS-Harou @bsharou
Original date: 2018-03-29T23:14:45Z

Also Redux is so much more than just the library itself. The whole ecosystem built around is just not something to be easily replaced. Handling complicated async stuff without redux-saga is pain, understanding the application flow without redux-logger is pain, managing history without react-router-redux is pain. Redux is love, redux is life.

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2018-03-29T23:37:14Z

Exactly! We're using Redux and Redux Saga on the server-side to manage a real-time content moderation queue.

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Original author: Eric Andre @ericandre
Original date: 2018-03-30T00:14:27Z

Yeah, even Angular projects are using Redux.

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Original author: Dziamid @dziamid
Original date: 2018-03-30T13:15:55Z

Interesting, care to blog about it?

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Original author: Mike @emshots
Original date: 2018-03-30T13:55:46Z

LONG LIVE REDUX!! ✊

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Original author: deadcoder0904 @deadcoder0904
Original date: 2018-03-30T18:03:29Z

Well I already did. Its another state management library. It can't provide all the benefits Redux provides. Its like if you're not using a framework, then you're making one. So if you're not using Context API, then you're using it through something like Redux/Mobx

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Original author: Eli
Original date: 2018-03-30T18:29:46Z

you are right, the context api replaces the old context which is already used by most state management frameworks.

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Original author: Matthew Barnden @matthewbarnden
Original date: 2018-03-30T23:33:07Z

The KISS principle being executed correctly will always have the biggest impact and see the most adoption. We saw this with jQuery and also with React. Whilst I agree you can use Redux elsewhere and do a bit more with it, many I feel use Redux for state management. The stable version of Context API now makes this clear and simple. The only people that won’t be adopting it for there state management needs are some pride filled devs that feel some sense of achievement from understanding the tangled, bloated and complex mess that is Redux.

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-03-31T10:14:38Z

one solution for that bloated tree is some library like recompact and back to using HOCs, such as the injector provided by mobx

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-03-31T10:15:20Z

say whatever you want, but I find it hard to believe that 10 years from now someone will look back at redux and think "what a beautiful library that shaped the way modern applications are architectured". What's likely to happen is that it goes into history as "remember that time people used to write code that way?".

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-03-31T10:20:22Z

I find it funny that the redux community thinks they've solved async programming for the first time in history. Wow redux-saga is the best way to write async code huh? How do those other programming languages do async programming I wonder.

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Original author: BS-Harou @bsharou
Original date: 2018-03-31T12:18:33Z

I mean sagas themselves do not originate in javascript. Anyway, it is not just about if there is a better way of doing things but if there is a solid js library with wide adoption to use. I think the js community is doing good job of taking the better ideas from other languages and implementing them and of all the solution that made its way to javascript I find redux-sags and rxjs to be so far the best out there. Of the two, sagas are imho easier when it comes to keeping the application logic in your head, but I have nothing against rxjs. That said, if someone comes up with something even better that gets the adoption and depth of ecosystem as redux has right now I can see myself moving on, it's just that there is nothing yet that would blow me away.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-03-31T14:10:55Z

Do you feel the same way about CQRS?

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-03-31T14:17:38Z

KISS is a function of the problem you are trying to solve. Do you care to share what you feel the main benefits of redux are? I think team\developer values are a really important part if Redux makes sense.

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Original author: Jeff Weinberg
Original date: 2018-03-31T14:54:51Z

It’s important to note how great Redux is for collaboration, in that it is very easy to onboard a new developer to a Redux project if they are familiar with the approach. It's going to be hard to say the same for a home baked approach using the context API

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Original author: Matthew Barnden @matthewbarnden
Original date: 2018-03-31T15:39:23Z

KISS is a principle that encourages you to try and remember to solve your problems simply and clearly, I think from my response you can see I’m not overly a fan of Redux, maybe as some other commenters have said, mainly when people jump for it to early and over complicate their solution. I agree that is important that a team are all happy and aligned with the library’s and frameworks they use, if this is what you meant. I just really think that we will see a drop off in the amount of Devs using Redux as they now have a simpler more coherent option for state management in React.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-03-31T16:13:16Z

That's a good description of KISS and I think FLUX was a great example of a company applying KISS to solve a very complex problem in a simple way. Facebook introduce FLUX to solve the issue they were having with keeping their notification count accurate across multiple teams in a very complex App. While 2 way data binding and MV* are both much simpler approaches than Redux they result in more complex solutions to the problem Facebook was facing as the data flow was complicated with models observing models making their data flow harder to reason about.

Redux is an optimization of the flux approach with an eye towards improved developer tooling. While using an immutable model could be seen as more complex (less simple) than having a model that mutates, it offers huge benefits on the performance side because it allows you to avoid deep dirty checks in React. To know foo is dirty when only foo.bar.biz.baz has changed we only need to do this

if (nextProps.foo !== this.props.foo)

I'd argue that this is much simpler approach to a more common issue in complex apps than the other viable options (deep compares or observables).

That's a huge gain for adding the immutability. If you implement idiomatic redux as your app grows complex a lot of the problems that are harder to tackle with simpler approaches like 2 way data binding, mutable models, etc... can become very difficult to solve. This is why you see so many folks rewriting 3 year old angular 1.x apps in React Redux even though it's a more complex data flow approach.

I'm not going to try and predict the future popularity of frameworks, although I've got a good track record of doing so, but I think there are some clear benefits to Redux today and if those align with your requirements and values then you can get big ROI out of it as I've seen on many, many projects.

I'm not sure I'm following your "more coherent" argument. Redux is a very opinionated approach and if anything having more, strict rules to follow would lead to a more coherent architecture not less.

That said on one project I'm currently using and enjoying using Apollo and I feel the future is bright there so who knows what's down the road but you'd be foolish to bet that any UX approach would still be a front runner in 5 years. That's never happened through my 20 year career.

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Original author: Matthew Barnden @matthewbarnden
Original date: 2018-03-31T16:45:28Z

Yes I agree that maybe the coherent comment was being slightly OTT. I am a firm believer in trying to get the right tool for the job / size and situation. I don’t really subscribe to this whole idea of tech being killed off etc, I’m much more of a product focused dev to be honest and want to focus on what really benefits the product. I have worked in different environments and team sizes digital agencies / corporate / start ups, the correct approach taken that brings the most success would be vastly different because of the product and situations needs. I did however get tired of the constant Redux evangelists, so I am sorta venting slightly 🙂, but I also do believe as said before that allot of people will start choosing to use the Context API rather than feeling that they have to jump into Redux just to manage some state.

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Original author: Evan Gillogley @evangillogley
Original date: 2018-03-31T21:10:21Z

yup. I use ngrx in Angular - not exactly redux, but pretty much same idea

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-03-31T22:43:04Z

That doesn’t really make sense to me because that’s not what what context is intended for and there is no where near feature parity with redux

“When to Use Context
Context is designed to share data that can be considered “global” for a tree of React components, such as the current authenticated user, theme, or preferred language.

...

Don’t use context just to avoid passing props a few levels down. Stick to cases where the same data needs to accessed in many components at multiple levels.“

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Original author: Matthew Barnden @matthewbarnden
Original date: 2018-03-31T22:53:30Z

Which would be my intention.

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Original author: InDev @IndevWeb
Original date: 2018-04-01T21:32:44Z

I write article about React without redux, because a new context api, can send state for childrens components, if use redux only it, you not need use redux :)

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-04-02T03:31:22Z

no, that I think is a good principle, may be more useful in the backend though.

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-04-02T03:41:16Z

the new mobx flow API seems to take some inspiration from redux-saga, you may find it useful. Personally I don't feel async programming should be that much of a topic when it comes to front-end architecture given people have been doing it for years. I'm not too impressed by generators, always thought it's just a different syntax to do the same thing, more into the power of rx.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-04-02T11:38:45Z

What would be your preferred pattern for solving Facebooks notification bug that they were fighting for years before going to a cqrs style approach which they called Flux?

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Original author: BS-Harou @bsharou
Original date: 2018-04-02T11:38:52Z

Personally I find mobx to be a bit too all over the place for my liking, but I guess some competition is always healthy.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-04-02T14:13:20Z

For global data this is not an approach I'd recommend to any of my clients. I'd recommend just using CommonJs and injecting stateful services (angular style) for sharing cross cutting concerns over using React's context.
This is just the Ambient Context pattern I recommend my clients to not use Ambient Context. Ambient Context has discoverability issues which can greatly increase difficulty of debugging, increase maintenance cost, increase ramp up time, etc... That said I'm aware that Redux uses ambient context however it in an isolated way and does this to enable tooling that greatly improves debugging so I feel the ROI is net positive.

And assuming you are going to following their recommendation then you would only use context in cases where their is a heavy sharing need which would leave you with a bit question mark around the rest of your state management needs. I couldn't imagine recommending context as a state management solution without some lib sitting on top of it... something like Redux.

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Original author: Matthew Barnden @matthewbarnden
Original date: 2018-04-02T15:32:35Z

Maybe something like unstated https://medium.com/react-na...

But I’m still not convinced I even need that after watching https://youtu.be/XLJN4JfniH4 - again not for every solution, but it certainly looks like I personally will not be jumping straight to Redux.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-04-02T17:39:38Z

unstated looks promising but after watching that video I'd be strongly recommending against people using context API. That's basically just Angular's inherited scope in React and I've worked on large projects and having data magically appear is not a good thing. It's a nightmare to reason about the data and adds no value. Be much better to have

import foo from './data/foo'

<fooviewer>
{foo && foo.count}
<button onclick="{()" ==""> foo.increment()}/>
</fooviewer>

Here if you were a new dev on the project you would know where the code lives. I see a lot of problems and zero added value of using context for this kind of thing.

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-04-03T00:24:41Z

I guess the way I felt about mobx is the same to what you said about how you felt about redux. It's not perfect but it's the best I could find. There is another one called derivablejs with slightly more consistent API I think. I really think react + rx is the killer combination especially now that context is in place, but it just hasn't gained enough traction and it's probably too late now that the community is too deep into redux.

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Original author: RyanVice @RyanVice
Original date: 2018-04-03T19:20:44Z

Agree 100%. Mobx is for folks who really miss angular

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Original author: Felix Bouaket Chanthapanya @felixbouaketchanthapanya
Original date: 2018-04-05T09:49:30Z

I second Dziamid !

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Original author: Ivan Kleshnin @Jabberworker
Original date: 2018-04-16T18:01:25Z

100% true man. Thanks for being brave enough to say that here. Redux will be forsaken. Thousands of people are writing their own Redux alternatives right now. And the same happened short before Flux disappeared. Redux ecosystem is bigger (tutors, books, etc) so it will take a bit longer.

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Original author: Max, Ionic CEO @yesimahuman
Original date: 2018-04-25T13:19:03Z

Exactly! We actually use redux with web components and it works great (uses the standard redux lib) https://github.com/ionic-te...

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Original author: asah @asah
Original date: 2018-04-25T15:11:46Z

Redux claims independence from React... but then the Redux docs directly use React even for the basic to-do list example: https://redux.js.org/basics...

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Original date: 2018-04-26T04:20:52Z

The Redux core is _absolutely_ independent from React - just look through the source. It's 100% vanilla JS. If you look at the "counter-vanilla" example, you'll see that there's absolutely no React whatsoever: https://github.com/reactjs/... .

However, while Redux _can_ be used with any UI layer, it is most commonly used with React. React-Redux was developed alongside the Redux core as part of the original development, and we continue to maintain React-Redux as an "official" bindings layer (bindings layer for other UI frameworks are maintained by other people).

The majority of our users are using React, and a majority of React devs use Redux. So yes, it's very natural for our docs to include examples using React.

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Original author: asah @asah
Original date: 2018-04-26T15:46:35Z

yes, I get it. My point is that if you're serious about independence, then *also* include examples from other frameworks, not just React. I'm talking about marketing, not engineering.

As an example, when you see language-independent APIs, they post identical examples in N languages, each one click away. Sure, I can write my own -- but the whole point of libraries is to save me work, right down to the last 100 feet.

As another example, the Jupyter guys are in a multi-year process of splitting away from Python and bending over backwards to prove to other communities that they're serious about. It seems to be working, with 100s of contributions from other communities.

hope this helps!

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Original date: 2018-04-27T02:32:25Z

I've had an open issue for a while now saying I'd like help improving our docs around usage with all UI frameworks: https://github.com/reactjs/... .

Unfortunately, I'm already very busy and don't currently have time to work on that task myself. I'd _love_ to have our community step up and help improve the docs further, whether it be that issue or any of the others tagged "docs".

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-05-01T02:12:45Z

that can be true for any approach that becomes so popular that learning materials are widely accessible.

The redux ecosystem is arguably not very standardised though so I doubt any new comer will find a setup that's similar to the tutorial they learn from. If you check out mobile dev landscape you'll find that Rx has becomes the de facto standard and it's the same in both Android and iOS.

When I read "Redux is for collaboration" I think more of the codebase involving by everyone keep adding reducers to handle same actions and avoid modifying existing code. While some think that's a good thing, it creates a lot of implicit dependencies that the team are gonna pay for eventually. I also fails to encourage the developer to think more holistically and fix architectural issues when they can just work around by a global event systems.

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2018-05-08T13:32:54Z

Wow, you guys incentivized me to do that, then I did but forgot to post the link here. Here you go: “Redux beyond React” @eliseumds https://medium.com/@eliseum...

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2018-09-20T14:44:42Z

"If you're only using Redux to avoid passing down props, context could replace Redux - but then you probably didn't need Redux in the first place."
But people behind Redux presented it as a cure for excessive passing of props quite often:
https://www.fullstackreact....
https://stackoverflow.com/a...
I love what you guys do, trying to help the community wrap their heads around what they should use in their projects and interacting with them so closely. I love how you discourage people from using your tool when it may bite them. But nobody has ever provided a simpler alternative (was there one?) for dealing with props passing (like a simple wrapper for then-unstable Context API), so people kept using Redux even though you kept saying they "might not need" it :).

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-10-01T02:22:28Z

a lot of things were different back then so maybe the downside needs to be re-evaluated. For one thing, there is no dependency injection when you use the React's context API, this is explicit service lookup. The only foot gun I see so far is one forgets to mount the Provider. The API however mitigate this by forcing a default context value which you will get in such case and know what happens.

For another, we have typescript now, it should be pretty obvious if something comes out of the context and what the context is.

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Original author: Hà Nguyễn @river11576
Original date: 2018-10-01T02:25:52Z

I do agree that in most cases what you need is not a contextual business object but rather a static business object that is shared.

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Original author: Vijay Thirugnanam @vijayst
Original date: 2018-11-21T15:57:01Z

I built a simple Store component that can mimic Redux almost. It calls the useReducer hook, Takes the reducer state and dispatch and puts it in a Context, and makes the Context available via a Provider. Downstream components can use useContext hook to subscribe to both the reducer state and dispatch. Of course, for combining reducers, there is no better API than combineReducers. More on my blog post: https://vijayt.com/post/mim...

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Original author: srcspider @srcspider
Original date: 2018-12-19T15:01:28Z

React is a really "Simple", "Elegant" and "Unbiased" solution to a very hard problem.
Redux is a very "Hard", "Verbose" and "Biased" solution to a very simple (many times non-existent) problem.

With React the usefulness is in the practical concepts: virtual dom, state diffs, etc. We don't care for the implementation. With Redux the usefulness is that "it's Redux" whatever that means. And Redux supporters only know how to talk in "Redux Speak", god forbid you don't use redux.

The concepts redux borrows (and didn't invent) are useful sometimes. They're just not useful all the time.

Here's the counter example, you can find the redux version in their docs as the first example.

let store = 0;
let subscribers = [];

const subscribe = handle => subscribers.push(handle);
const unsubscribe = handle => subscribers.splice(subscribers.indexOf(handle), 1);
const update = () => subscribers.map(sub => sub(store));
const action = thing => ( ...args) => { thing( ...args); update(); }

const add = action( (n = 1) => store += n );
const sub = action( (n = 1) => store -= n );
const addIfEven = action( (n = 1) => store += n * ((store + 1) % 2) );
const addIfOdd = action( (n = 1) => store += n * (store % 2) );

You can easily see from the above that there are 3 concerns here, actions, subscribers, data manipulation only though actions. You don't need a book to figure out what the benefits, cons are. There's no library needed to do it. And you can build upon the concept (use something that handles event and state simultaneously and just split the actions, use something that adds events to the actions easily, etc). If you have a different kind of problem you can also move to different solutions to the actions, state and subscribers. React added some new ways for you to propagate state? you can just use that.

> One of the problems with social media is that it's easy for misinformation to spread quickly.

Agreed.

"Oh look everyone has a max limit on passswords? Me too!"
"Using classes makes you look smart? Me too!"
"This guy is using gulp to start webpack? Me too! So much 'cooler' 30 lines over a single line in bash script or package.json"

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Original author: samloesch @samloesch
Original date: 2019-01-01T15:44:27Z

bsharou what

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Original author: Pietro Coelho @pietrofxq
Original date: 2019-01-10T00:45:10Z

This is not solving the problems that context solves. In your example you cannot update foo and have its update spread across the whole system with react re-rendering dependent components to make sure they have the updates. Also, unless you are using notepad, you can just control-click the component and it'll take you to the definition.

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:00Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:02Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:03Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:05Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:06Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:08Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:09Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:11Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:13Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:14Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:16Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:18Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:19Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:21Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:22Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:24Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:25Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:27Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:29Z

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Original author: Eliseu Monar @eliseumds
Original date: 2019-03-23T10:16:30Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:26Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:28Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:30Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:31Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:33Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:34Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:36Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:38Z

https://goo.gl/RXnM7r

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:39Z

https://goo.gl/5qj9pM

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:41Z

https://goo.gl/zaLtSn

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:42Z

https://goo.gl/5rUDZa

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:44Z

https://goo.gl/Mr4q7W

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:46Z

https://goo.gl/WyMU1Z

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:47Z

https://goo.gl/AfLJLt

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:49Z

https://goo.gl/sv3ioM

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:50Z

https://goo.gl/1rAjtD

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:52Z

https://goo.gl/hTQesM

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:13:54Z

https://goo.gl/EMX1uL

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:00Z

https://goo.gl/VBrryf

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:01Z

https://goo.gl/V5L7cA

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:03Z

https://goo.gl/kevj31

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:05Z

https://goo.gl/54ezjr

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:06Z

https://goo.gl/QJJMJz

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:08Z

https://goo.gl/mLHo6Q

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:09Z

https://goo.gl/CbQwqT

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:11Z

https://goo.gl/XFPktB

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:12Z

https://goo.gl/SGNFuz

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:14Z

https://goo.gl/ZU6yMQ

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:15Z

https://goo.gl/QEDPb1

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Original author: Michał Urbanek @kremuwa
Original date: 2019-03-24T16:14:17Z

https://goo.gl/cMJNyt

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