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MBilalShafi avatar MBilalShafi commented on April 28, 2024 6

@Arsil99 I thank you for expressing your concern about the devastating situation in Palestine, my heart breaks alike, I think it's not only your concern, but it's also a concern of the whole human race, since the genocide (as declared by the ICJ in its historical ruling related to this issue) being committed since more than last 4 months is certainly something the world has never seen like in ages.

Adding my two cents here, there are a few statements on this thread that I disagree with.

  1. Firstly, IMHO the genocide under discussion is not a political issue, rather it's a severe humanitarian crisis, impacting every individual in some way, and I think, it's the responsibility of every member of the human race who cares about the future of humanity to do whatever in their power is, to immediately put a full stop on. If not, I'm afraid any nation can use this as a reference in the future to exercise brutality on the masses in the name of self-defense.
  2. About the market, I agree that this region is not that saturated with the developer community, but since this is not anymore a regional issue, it kind of escalated globally in a way that can impact every nation in some way, by setting high moral grounds (if the world recognizes the severity of the issue and steps up against the oppressor in time like they did in Ukraine-Russia conflict) or lowering them if they fail to do that.
  3. About the scale, I think comparing Ukraine-Russia and Palestine-Israel, the latter is certainly more violent, cruel, one-sided, and unjustifiable than the former, one example is the killing of children in only one month in Gaza is more than the children killed in the whole first year of Ukraine-Russia war, let alone elderly, women, pregnant women, in-womb babies, hospitals, churches and what not. source. Another major difference is, Ukraine-Russia conflict is a war, but Palestine-Israel conflict is a genocide, where unlike Ukrainians, who can thankfully fight back to the oppressor, the helpless Gazan civilians got no army to fight, nowhere to go, take shelter, no food to eat, they are literally in a world's biggest open-air prison, not only after October 7th which only worsened it but for the past 17 or more years. They are living like always expecting bombs from above to wipe them from the face of the earth. It's more relatable to the holocaust in my opinion rather than the Ukraine-Russia war. The extremely shocking and current devastating situation confirmed by credible sources has been thoroughly presented by the lawyers of South Africa in the case put up in the International Court of Justice and could be checked in this court proceeding.
  4. About wanting to get independence and the other nation not letting them have it, I think it's the same situation in this conflict as well, not from recently, but from decades now.

I agree and respect the point of only binding to the professional stuff and not adding details about various conflicts as we work in a professional domain, but I see no reason to not add a Palestinian support banner if we decide to keep showing one for Ukraine, to me, both the conflicts are extremely similar, rather the Palestine one is worse in many ways. If other team members rhyme with me on this POV, we could consider adding the banner. Or at the very least we could do is to add something like mdxjs to urge the ceasefire ASAP to have our contribution in putting a stop to this devastating humanitarian crisis.

But the point I would get from this is that it doesn't feel like this project documentation would have much impact on helping to make it happen.

I agree, but just in comparison, if it did in the Ukraine-Russia conflict, it might as well in this one as well may be very little, but it might. At least it could improve some awareness in the people about the severity of the situation.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this. @oliviertassinari @samuelsycamore šŸ™

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samuelsycamore avatar samuelsycamore commented on April 28, 2024 2

I appreciate you weighing in @MBilalShafi. I completely agree with your statements about the urgency and severity of the situation. When I refer to this as "political," what I mean to say is that it's very polarizingā€”at least here in the US. People are losing their jobs, being run out of academic institutions, labeled as extremists, and assaulted and arrested for the "crime" of advocating for Palestine. I think it's important to show solidarity in my personal life, and I do what I can; I just don't know if it makes sense to do so in the MUI docs. Ultimately it's not my decision to make.

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oliviertassinari avatar oliviertassinari commented on April 28, 2024 2

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oliviertassinari avatar oliviertassinari commented on April 28, 2024

Closing as it's not an issue with the code but the conversation can continue here async.

Related to #39863 as a political topic.

For those who wonder why:

We added it because:

  • Market: A large developer community in Ukraine, Ukraine+Russia population: 200M, 3% of world population.
  • Societe organization model: Democracy vs. Autocracy. It looks like another rippling of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars.
  • Fairness: a population who wants its independence, but another who feels threatened by them having it.

But I wanted to remove it in #34795, I think the documentation should trend toward not being involved in these conflicts.

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samuelsycamore avatar samuelsycamore commented on April 28, 2024

I want to preface this by saying that I am against all war everywhere, and I stand with the people of both Ukraine and Palestine, who do not remotely deserve what is being done to them. I also empathize with citizens of Russia and Israel who have to watch in horror and disgust as these atrocities are carried out by their governments that they cannot influence (I have plenty of experience with that as an American). I also have zero interest in debating my positions here, so don't bother.

All that said, it feels like a slippery slope to include these kinds of political statements on the site. We can't reasonably add a support widget for every nation or people victimized by colonial aggressionā€”there'd be no room left on the site for documentation. It seems strange that we've been showing solidarity with Ukraine for almost 2 years but have never made any kind of statement about Palestine since that conflict began. Why not? (Maybe because it's way beyond the scope of our work? Do the views of the org unanimously represent those of each individual maintainer or contributor?)

Are we to weigh in on each subsequent global conflict and pick a side? What would that look like, logistically speaking? Would we drop the previous support widget and replace it with the flag of the latest oppressed peoples every few months? What good does any of this do, really? I'm asking because I truly don't know.

My heart breaks for Ukraine and Palestine alike. But it doesn't make much sense to me to fill our documentation with political statements. It's just not what it's for.

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lorand-horvath avatar lorand-horvath commented on April 28, 2024

Adding to what was said above, I think a good way of conducting oneself in professional environments (job, work, programming, etc.) is to leave out family, health, religion & politics, on principle.

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Arsil99 avatar Arsil99 commented on April 28, 2024

@oliviertassinari you said there is "Ukraine+Russia population: 200M". So According to you population is more important instead of Humanity.

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oliviertassinari avatar oliviertassinari commented on April 28, 2024

you said there is "Ukraine+Russia population: 200M". So According to you population is more important instead of Humanity.

@Arsil99 I think that we should wish for peace. I dream of this world: https://www.economist.com/the-world-if/2017/07/13/a-world-of-free-movement-would-be-78-trillion-richer. But the point I would get from this is that it doesn't feel like this project documentation would have much impact on helping to make it happen.

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