Use Arrow PyCapsule Interface instead of Dataframe Interchange Protocol about seaborn HOT 4 OPEN

Thanks for elaborating.

and would immediately open up seaborn for use from polars

To be clear, this is already the case:

import polars as pl
import seaborn as sns
df = pl.DataFrame({"cat": ["x", "y", "z"], "val": [1, 2, 3]})
sns.barplot(df, x="cat", y="val")

using a more generic library like narwhals for any internal dataframe operations

This is a complete non-starter.

Assuming seaborn still requires NumPy types for interactivity with matplotlib

I can't see that changing any time soon, but I don't know what specifically is on matplotlib's roadmap.

from seaborn.

Thanks for flagging. Just skimmed your link but it looks like it's operating at a very different level from the dataframe interchange protocol? The relevance to seaborn (i.e., is there a simple way to be more agnostic about input data structure types) isn't super obvious.

from seaborn.

Apologies as I should have been more clear - the technical documentation I provided was just a reference, not something I'd expect seaborn to have to implement from scratch. The dataframe libraries that you would interact with should do most of the heavy lifting for that.

@MarcoGorelli probably knows best here, but from a cursory glance of the seaborn source code, I think you could adopt the Arrow PyCapsule interface in a piece-wise fashion:

1. Maintain the dependency on pandas, but just swap out checks for the __dataframe__ dunder with checks for __arrow_c_schema__
2. Drop the dependency on pandas, using a more generic library like narwhals for any internal dataframe operations

Step 1 I think would be pretty easy, and would immediately open up seaborn for use from polars, excluding any data types that polars has which pandas does not (most likely Decimal / aggregate types)

Step 2 would take a little more time. I'm not sure if narwhals is even fully capable of abstracting all of the dataframe operations that seaborn needs today, but in theory this would make your dependencies more lightweight by dropping pandas

Overall, rather than seaborn having to customize solutions towards the various dataframe type systems, the ecosystem would just converge on just the Arrow type system. Assuming seaborn still requires NumPy types for interactivity with matplotlib, there will still be a gap where Arrow types don't have a plottable equivalent, but I think that's better than the status quo where seaborn is tied to pandas type-system, given Arrow is better documented and more stable

from seaborn.

Thanks for the ping, and thanks both for comments! 🙏

It's true that Seaborn accepts Polars objects, but they fail if the object contains data types not recognised by the interchange protocol (#3533). (I think we all find this frustrating, and feel at least slightly let down by the interchange protocol, but that's a different story..)

Seaborn currently uses

pd.api.interchange.from_dataframe(data)

and that's what fails for when the interchange protocol falls short. But if in pandas we first tried using the (superior, better maintained, less fallible) PyCapsule interface, then Seaborn's current code could "just work"

using a more generic library like narwhals for any internal dataframe operations

This is a complete non-starter.

😆 fair enough

So, in summary, there might be anything actionable on Seaborn's side here (though I hope the fallback in #3534 makes it into the next release). Still, good to catch up and hear your opinion on the topic 🙌

from seaborn.