Data Improvements in Panama about appledata HOT 14 OPEN

Hi, I found this issue thanks to your email to [email protected] where you mentioned the project. there isn't yet a talk-pa, but we have a wiki page and a Telegram group.

from appledata.

@mfrasca Thanks, that's good to know!

from appledata.

@awisemanapple , I had forgotten about this page, and your contributors do not mention it with some hashtag when they edit roads in Panama. I have commented to one of them under my wrong assumption they were from Kaart (my mistake, since Kaart editors do use enough hashtags when editing)
one of the issues I'm having with your contributors, apart from their not clear communicating what they are doing or why they're doing it, is that they seem to focus on "fixing" things rather than adding information.
roads visible from aerial pictures, based on the nature of the terrain, may be … just hardly walkable paths on white soft rock. you surely know that the terrain here has a very thin fertile layer, which will disappear if you just walk on it often enough; … or through roads which haven't yet been paved, but serve distant communities; … or roads in the process of being traced and are by now paved.
all information that has to be checked with people on the ground.

at least one of your editors is putting them back to highway=track, not hundreds of times, true, but often enough to result annoying, in particular since there's so much more to do here.

if you want to help mapping Panama, changing what locals have already edited is not the way to go.

from appledata.

one hint on how to look for things to map: follow rivers, and look for hanging bridges. they signal roads that are important enough as to need a bridge, even if this is usually for walking, or motorbike, or horse. (these also signal major rivers, which in Panama also serve as ways.)
other hint: look for unmapped squares, as of yesterday I could draw several rectangles with surface around 40km², without any geographic information, and containing groups of houses I would consider place=village, or rivers, or roads, even paved ones, even with bridges, but most of them unclassified, with fords, and side paths over hanging bridges.

from appledata.

Thanks for the comment, it is well noted. About a year ago I posted on the Panama OSM Forum and linked to this Github page: https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewforum.php?id=61 and also reached out directly to a few active editors in Panama in early 2018. I also did a Skype call a few years ago with a community member who presented about OSM Panama at SOTM Latam in Santiago. We are planning to start editing water features in Panama sometime in the future, when we are closer to that I’ll make sure to message the community Telegram and Forum again for suggestions and feedback. I have also added this page to the OSM Wiki page for Panama and will message the Telegram again about it. As for missing roads, I created this MapRoulette challenge for villages and towns that don't have roads in them: https://maproulette.org/challenge/12884/

from appledata.

I wrote you about the missing roads and missing places on Telegram. here a summary for those who aren't on the Telegram group:

we have a situation here in Panama, where the western part of the country has received exports of lists of places, as tiny as a single house, and it's not traceable why these places have been placed wherever they have been placed. given the amount of such places, a MapRoulette will with 90% chance lead you to one of them. this will likely defeat the casual mapper, because they will land in the middle of nowhere, not see anything but jungle, and wonder what the heck is this place=hamlet node doing there, for there's nothing looking like a house in the whole area. (I have suggested removing them altogether, but I'd rather not do it without any kind of consent from other mappers, and the silence on the issue is as if nobody sees any problem.)

in other parts of the country, you will not find places with missing roads, because nobody ever mapped places.

that's to say: we have other priorities in Panama and we would be glad to discuss them with you/your team, if you have any interest and would be able to help.

I have been selecting larger squares (think of 20km²) with zero information, mapping houses. there isn't any practical use to this task, for it's far too big. it does show the difficulty to join geographic information with the official census data.

from appledata.

Thanks Mario. I split the unmapped places MapRoulette challenge in two parts, everything but Chiriquí https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/12935 and Chiriquí only https://maproulette.org/browse/challenges/12934. I turned the old one off so people can't find it.

from appledata.

@awisemanapple , I see you have changed the title of this issue, and your team is now actively editing Panamá. changing the title implies changing the content, as I see from the edits. I've reviewed a random amount of your edits and I find nothing to complain, except the usual lack of transparency. it would be nice to know what you plan to edit in this batch, if you would like feedback from the community, if you have space to listen to us, if you think to close this issue at the end of the batch, …

I think the best way would be if you would consider joining us in our virtual meeting the 3rd of January, we plan to have 30 minutes slots for presentations, and you can easily fill one.

from appledata.

We are currently pursuing a project that focuses on improvements to coastline and water features and land use polygons where needed, and the roads editing discussed previously. Our edits in this project are focused on improving data such as removing duplicates, correcting geometry, fixing incorrect tags and other similar issues. This may include things like fixing broken relations, improving poorly modeled features such as from old or low resolution imagery, fixing JOSM validation warnings where they should be fixed, making sure things follow OSM policy, and other issues. The relevant policies and tagging guidelines are linked above. I appreciate the offer for joining the virtual meeting, I saw the discussion about it elsewhere as well. I will be on vacation then but will see if I can attend. In the new year I look forward to continuing to collaborate with the Panamanian OSM community.

from appledata.

the "land use polygons where needed", that's all over the place at least in Chiriquí/Bocas/Ngäbe-Buglé, there's polygons which are adjacent, but do not use the same nodes, there's overlap all over the place, and conflicts.
or does "where needed" mean "where it touches water"?
we chose the date because we're being confined until the 4th, like in "cerco sanitario".

from appledata.

The land use edits mentioned above are separate from water or coastline, though it is possible they might be adjacent or related to each other. As mentioned above, the land use polygons are airports, national parks and other similar protected areas, colleges and universities, and a couple others like hospitals, cemeteries and golf courses. It wouldn't be other kinds of land use, like residential, farms, and so on. The edits would include things like missing or incorrect tags such as https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:protect_class on parks, incorrect geometry, broken relations, typos in names, and JOSM validation warnings. I hope this helps. I am singing off for the holidays though, have a good holiday!

from appledata.

Hi Andrew. as we were mentioning in a Telegram chat, we have a non-obvious situation here in Panamá, about coastline and mangroves. one of your editors changed the only spot where https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/dmgroom_ct and myself had produced a line validated on the ground. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/82449459
your contribution was https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/93859310, which is quite counterproductive.

as soon as you can confirm that your editors will stop correcting us, I will fix it again.

from appledata.

About a year ago I posted on the Panama OSM Forum

Hola Andrew, your contribution to the Forum Panama was about "Retos de MapRoulette" (something you created for us, attracting corrections on issues your team had identified).
Later on, when your team started editing, you did not renew and clarify the message to the local community. I know that you always understand and note my suggestions, so let me propose a title suggestion for the next time: "the ADT is going to correct some aspects of your map" (that is: your team would perform the corrections).
Even better if you would discuss the scope of your editing actions. Some are most welcome, while occasionally your editors provide uneducated guesses correcting our manual work, corrections that we need to revert.

btw: I never cared to ask you about what you mention here:

[Andrew] reached out directly to a few active editors in Panama in early 2018. I also did a Skype call a few years ago with a community member who presented about OSM Panama at SOTM Latam in Santiago

You know that the Panamanian mappers community is smaller than just tiny. Would you mind publishing their OSM usernames? I started mapping Panamá approx. October 2015, pity you did not find me in early 2018. I've looked in the SotM LatAm 2015 in Santiago, also asked one of the organizers (Julio Costa), and he told me "yo no recuerdo siquiera que haya asistido alguien de Panamá" (as far as I remember, there was nobody from Panama). Julio hints "Quizás fue en Buenos Aires o São Paulo, aunque tampoco recuerdo que haya ocurrido ahí. Sí te puedo asegurar que no fue en el de Lima" (Maybe it was in Buenos Aires or São Paulo, although I don't remember it happening there either. Yes I can assure you that it was not in Lima ).

from appledata.

It was Carlos Gordón and Mónica Mora, Carlos's lightning talk starts at 26:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ2IKPCTAcc. Carlos worked for the city of Panama City, Monica I don't remember if she also worked there or not, I believe she was part of the open source community there.

from appledata.