Comments (10)
leithaus
commented on July 30, 2024
Dear Rho Enthusiasts,
It is encouraging to see people wanting to make improvements. However, some
changes will not actually improve things. You cannot decentralize RSpace.
You can compose RSpaces, but there is a level below which you cannot
decompose an RSpace and still have transactional integrity relative to a
given collection of bonded validators.
The whole point of using namespaces and mapping namespaces to aggregated
RSpaces is to guarantee validated transactional semantics across a tree of
shards. There’s no unit smaller than an RSpace validated by a bonded
validator set. There are larger units, but not smaller ones.
In fact, you can calculate the minimum number of names served by a single
RSpace shard for it to be viable. Hint: you must have at least the number
of wallets as there are validators. But if you only serve that many names,
the shard does no useful work.
The biggest issue with this architecture, however is that you can prove,
using grade school math, that tokens have a time-to-live. They expire. If
they are not expired, they represent a debt the network owes rather than an
asset.
Love to all Beings,
—greg
Hope is beyond reason and Love is even greater than that.
…On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 06:58 Patrick Mockridge ***@***.***> wrote:
Speaking with Jim Whitescarver at the moment. He believes that other forks
are working on decentralization of the Tuplespace, but that it's important
to add it to the issue list here.
This is a necessary and important performance enhancement feature.
Introduction/Motivation/Abstract Motivating Examples Examples Comparison
Examples Counter-Examples Design Counter-Examples Drawbacks Alternatives
References
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jimscarver
commented on July 30, 2024
The whole point of using namespaces and mapping namespaces to aggregated RSpaces is to guarantee validated transactional semantics
You are perfectly correct, decentralizing Rspace across validators is a non starter. That's the domain of sharding. What I am suggesting is is a concept that I believed @tgrospic and yourself were already advocating. Perhaps it was wishful thinking on my part :)
What I am suggesting is hierarchical name space with independent tuple spaces rather that one that grows without bound.
Each name space corresponds to a markov blanket with an interface to an environment. Wallets occupy a global context but I would expect most contracts either do not reference wallets or only reference them through an interface. The context of a contract need not occupy the global tuple space. At any one time I would expect only a relatively small subset of name spaces would be active and there is no need to search them all.
I understand where may be technical challenges with this but I believe we will ultimately need name spaces with an organic nature.
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leithaus
commented on July 30, 2024
Dear Jim,
Thank you for clarifying. That was already part of the original design.
Mike Stay, Nash Foster, Kyle, and i all agreed a tree of shards with
corresponding hierarchical namespaces.
Love to all Beings,
—greg
Hope is beyond reason and Love is even greater than that.
…On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 12:42 Jim Whitescarver ***@***.***> wrote:
The whole point of using namespaces and mapping namespaces to aggregated
RSpaces is to guarantee validated transactional semantics
You are perfectly correct, decentralizing Rspace across validators is a
non starter. What I am suggesting is is a concept that I believed
@tgrospic <https://github.com/tgrospic> and yourself were already
advocating. Perhaps it was wishful thinking on my part :)
What I am suggesting is hierarchical name space with independent tuple
spaces rather that one that grows without bound.
Each name space corresponds to a markov blanket with an interface to an
environment. Wallets occupy a global context but I would expect most
contracts either do not reference wallets or only reference them through an
interface. The context of a contract need not occupy the global tuple
space. At any one time I would expect only a relatively small subset of
name spaces would be active and there is no need to search them all.
I understand where may be technical challenges with this but I believe we
will ultimately need name spaces with an organic nature.
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jimscarver
commented on July 30, 2024
tree of shards
Not sure why you refer to "shards". More clarification may be needed. I am talking about a complete tree in every validator.
It occurs to me that if this is accomplished it might also allow a significantly more effective means for block merge.
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leithaus
commented on July 30, 2024
Dear Jim,
Each shard is a collection of validators serving a given namespace. Let us
use the notation ( V, N ) where V = { V1, …, Vn } is the validator set and
N is some namespace formula. We use accessor notation, V(S) and N( S ) to
pick out the components of a shard, S.
Given two namespace formulae, N1 and N2, let’s say that a name, n1, is a
prefix of a name n2 just when n1 |= N1 and n2 |= N2 and N1 <= N2 in the
evident order. Dually, n2 is an extension of n1.
Additionally we say S1 is a parent of S2 when N( S1 ) <= N( S2 ) and S1
validates all the prefixes of the names that S2 would otherwise validate;
and, S2 validates the extensions that satisfy N( S2 ) of the names S1
validates. Note that for transactions involving names in two extensions of
S1, say S2 and S3, S1 is the final arbiter if transactional integrity.
While Vi may be in V( S1 ) /\ V( S2 ), it must have a separate bond. So,
for convenience we may assume that V( S1 ) /\ V( S2 ) = {}.
This is a generalization of directories and files. Note that there must be
a contract governing the exchange rate between tokens in S1 and tokens in
S2.
This all gets much more complicated when you factor in the fact that tokens
go stale.
Love to all Beings,
—greg
Hope is beyond reason and Love is even greater than that.
…On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 13:12 Jim Whitescarver ***@***.***> wrote:
tree of shards
Not sure why you refer to "shards". More clarification may be needed. I am
talking about a complete tree in every validator.
It occurs to me that if this is accomplished it might also allow a
significantly more effective means for block merge.
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jimscarver
commented on July 30, 2024
Each shard is a collection of validators serving a given namespace
Thanks for describing decentralization with shards. It's good information. But this thread is not about sharding.
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leithaus
commented on July 30, 2024
Dear Jim,
Thanks for your clarification. As i mentioned earlier, there is no
transactionally safe decentralization of RSpace below the shard.
Love to all Beings,
—greg
Hope is beyond reason and Love is even greater than that.
…On Sun, Feb 25, 2024 at 17:33 Jim Whitescarver ***@***.***> wrote:
Each shard is a collection of validators serving a given namespace
Thanks for describing decentralization with shards. It's good information.
But this thread is not about sharding.
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PatrickMockridge
commented on July 30, 2024
I spoke with Jim today about this conversation. My conclusion is that Jim hasn't properly defined the question he's asking. After asking @jimscarver to elaborate on the issue a bit more, my suggestion was that he write up a short summary with some diagrams to explain the problem statement and the solutions space in which he's querying.
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jimscarver
commented on July 30, 2024
Considering an implementation it may not be practical to implement what I
am suggesting.
My thought was that rather than always having the continuation in tuple
space it might have a namespace tuple space reference which would activate
the referenced namespace to find the continuation and complete it using the
union of the existing space and the new space. Each propose would start
with only the global tuple space which would not contain most names and
continuations. If for example we have huge data blocks like videos their
tuple space would only be activated when they are actually accessed in a
proposal.
I have not fully considered the potentially huge number of tuple spaces and
when to search them in parallel or not. Some heuristic may be needed to
effectively decide when a "new" warrants its own tuple space or not such as
setting a minimum size or even identifying Objects or Actors in the code. I
expect there are more issues. But I am concerned about the explosion of the
size of tuple space. Sharding provides a partial answer for now, when
employed. This may be an issue for future research. It may or may not have
a practical solution witout changing the rho cacl.
…On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 1:12 PM Patrick Mockridge ***@***.***> wrote:
I spoke with Jim today about this conversation. My conclusion is that Jim
hasn't properly defined the question he's asking. After asking @jimscarver
<https://github.com/jimscarver> to elaborate on the issue a bit more, my
suggestion was that he write up a short summary with some diagrams to
explain the problem statement and the solutions space in which he's
querying.
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leithaus
commented on July 30, 2024
Dear Jim,
Thanks for your thoughts and the stimulating discussion.
At the end of the day there is a MUCH faster way to execute rholang. Our
experiments are showing 3 orders of magnitude improvement, at least.
Going through Pentti Kanerva’s hypervector formalism is many times faster.
Love to all Beings,
—greg
Hope is beyond reason and Love is even greater than that.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 17:52 Jim Whitescarver ***@***.***>
wrote:
… Considering an implementation it may not be practical to implement what I
am suggesting.
My thought was that rather than always having the continuation in tuple
space it might have a namespace tuple space reference which would activate
the referenced namespace to find the continuation and complete it using
the
union of the existing space and the new space. Each propose would start
with only the global tuple space which would not contain most names and
continuations. If for example we have huge data blocks like videos their
tuple space would only be activated when they are actually accessed in a
proposal.
I have not fully considered the potentially huge number of tuple spaces
and
when to search them in parallel or not. Some heuristic may be needed to
effectively decide when a "new" warrants its own tuple space or not such
as
setting a minimum size or even identifying Objects or Actors in the code.
I
expect there are more issues. But I am concerned about the explosion of
the
size of tuple space. Sharding provides a partial answer for now, when
employed. This may be an issue for future research. It may or may not have
a practical solution witout changing the rho cacl.
On Mon, Feb 26, 2024 at 1:12 PM Patrick Mockridge ***@***.***>
wrote:
> I spoke with Jim today about this conversation. My conclusion is that
Jim
> hasn't properly defined the question he's asking. After asking
@jimscarver
> <https://github.com/jimscarver> to elaborate on the issue a bit more,
my
> suggestion was that he write up a short summary with some diagrams to
> explain the problem statement and the solutions space in which he's
> querying.
>
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Related Issues (20)
- RChain light client? Merkle tree to transactions? (IBC for RChain?) HOT 6
- Create a standard procedure for external development HOT 1
- Add string functions HOT 3
- Prepaid rholang execution PRE
- binary attachments on an enhanced DeployData message HOT 6
- provide for data retention and storage payment HOT 6
- Export of REV vault state (REV balances)
- Hard Fork 1
- Soft-fork Mechanism HOT 1
- Hard Fork 1 - bonded REVs minted twice
- remote channels and deploys for cross-shard interaction HOT 2
- rapid rotation of validators, staking longevity rewards and open/flexible enrollment
- REV price stabilization and minting for validator rewards and coop treasury
- rholang 1.1 -> 1.0 dev tool a la babel HOT 9
- Parser/interpreter access within rholang HOT 2
- transparent proxy support HOT 1
- BigInt and Float support HOT 3
- String explode HOT 4
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